but what if that means, you know, having lots of a powerful nsa and drone wars and secret operations and all these other things that we're beginning to see some people say they don't like either? so we haven't really been able to, i mean, i think that the side that wants to talk about scaling back the war on terrorism at this point should also talk about the idea that it's not a false choice, to quote obama from his national archives speech, between liberty and security. it's a very real choice. and we should be coming to terms with that. >> well, i think liberty versus security and the various trade-offs and how much terrorism and damage you're willing to accept inflicted on you would be a great other panel for us to have -- [laughter] >> i'm just saying i think we've had a little bit of a -- i think sometimes we treat this conversation like we're children, and we want to believe that we can have everything, you know? and we can't. .. the analytical side. of what their data scooped up. so there is something to be had there, a conversation to be had there. i just say that, you know,